tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post5099906848735499897..comments2023-06-07T11:11:02.474+02:00Comments on Vasco-Caucasian: Germanic *sajwi- 'sea, lake'Octavià Alexandrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14569731729402710400noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-17534060739019605122011-10-25T21:06:21.994+02:002011-10-25T21:06:21.994+02:00And why, pray, do you think that – especially in t...<i>And why, pray, do you think that – especially in the absence of any loanword clues, and in the face of a perfectly reasonable etymological explanation?</i><br />Unlike mine, the scope of mainstream IE-ists is limited to IE languages and their reconstructed PIE. So what it appears to be "a perfectly reasonable etymological explanation" to you, might look as inadequate to me. <br /><br />You might already know Germanic has a large proportion of non-IE substrate loanwords, and the word 'sea' looks to be one of them.<br /><br /><i>I do not compare those two, and I have no idea why you choose to enter *saiwalō- into this discussion. Remember that we were speaking about *saiwi-.</i><br />I've choosen <b>*saiwalō-</b> only to illustrate the <i>phonetic</i> developments of <b>*saiwi-</b>, as they're similar sounding, not because I think they're actually related (although some crackpots think the contrary).<br /><br /><i>(That said, do you have any reasons for assuming a syncope of the first syllable in sval-, and for what exactly was syncopated?)</i><br />Vocalic syncope is very frequent in Etruscan. For example, Latin <b>Sāturnus</b> corresponds to Etruscan <b>Satre</b>. And normally, syncope arises on unstressed syllables.Octavià Alexandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14569731729402710400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-85719829391816130612011-10-25T20:22:54.434+02:002011-10-25T20:22:54.434+02:00"Yes, some people has proposed this connectio..."Yes, some people has proposed this connection, but IMHO the Germanic word has no IE cognates."<br /><br />And why, pray, do you think that – especially in the absence of any loanword clues, and in the face of a perfectly reasonable etymological explanation?<br /><br />"Also the -i- before the w glide appears to be secondary. Compare *saiwalō- 'soul' (also without PIE etymology) and Etruscan sval- 'to live' (with syncope of the first syllable)."<br /><br />I do not compare those two, and I have no idea why you choose to enter *saiwalō- into this discussion. Remember that we were speaking about *saiwi-. (That said, do you have any reasons for assuming a syncope of the first syllable in sval-, and for what exactly was syncopated?)Almagesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11737365394774242432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-4049824396997502612011-10-21T22:35:03.630+02:002011-10-21T22:35:03.630+02:00Wow, you actually considered that an Aegean langua...<i>Wow, you actually considered that an Aegean language contributed to an IE language...</i><br />IMHO, the Germanic word was borrowed from some Vasco-Caucasian language, but not necessarily an Aegean one. In fact, Etruscan has also loanwords from non-Aegean VC languages.<br /><br /><i>Back to the Germanic word for sea...what Almagest has said and what you said is reminiscent of something I read on a blog by Anatoly Lieberman...where he writes about a connection between the words "sea" and "soul"</i><br />This is clearly a case of <i>homophony</i>. Why should I read all the crackpot theories one can found in the Internet? <br /><br /><i>Also I saw an interesting word in Finnic that is remniniscent of the Latin word "Silva". That word is, "Salo" ==> wilds or woodland(s), which has an uncertain or non-Uralic etymology... Could there be any relationship there...I am not sure of what, if any, contact Uralic and Latin had. </i><br />As in the case of the Altaic word, this can't be explained within the mainstream framework. IMHO this word muste be a remnant of the languages spoken by hunter-gatherers in Mesolithic Europe.<br /><br /><i>Also...I still think that Uralic word "Suo" might, somehow, be related...I just read that, that word doesn't have a Uralic etymology or that it is uncertain.</i><br />But the Uralic word doesn't even means 'sea' but 'bog, swamp', so it can't be etymologically related to the Germanic.Octavià Alexandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14569731729402710400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-22924265705589365452011-10-21T17:45:51.022+02:002011-10-21T17:45:51.022+02:00Wow, you actually considered that an Aegean langua...Wow, you actually considered that an Aegean language contributed to an IE language...hahaha<br /><br />Like possibly Etruscan "*sil" and Latin "Silva" and Greek "Hulé"...all meaning wood or woods<br /><br />I don't know what the Proto-Aegean word would be.<br /><br />Back to the Germanic word for sea...what Almagest has said and what you said is reminiscent of something I read on a blog by Anatoly Lieberman...where he writes about a connection between the words "sea" and "soul"<br /><br />Here is the link:<br />http://blog.oup.com/2009/10/watered-down-etymologies/<br /><br />Also...I still think that Uralic word "Suo" might, somehow, be related...I just read that, that word doesn't have a Uralic etymology or that it is uncertain.<br /><br />Page 265 the last paragraph above section "9.2. Genetics":<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=Cp-tB08yd2EC&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=Suo+%2B+Uralic&source=bl&ots=iQC7e9_0Cv&sig=9pzq53WnrNiMWd6ewFGgJzzD7ys&hl=en&ei=5JChTt-EG9K2tge38uCYBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Suo%20%2B%20Uralic&f=falseAdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-87810916818080855002011-10-21T09:32:49.741+02:002011-10-21T09:32:49.741+02:00Yes, some people has proposed this connection, but...Yes, some people has proposed this connection, but IMHO the Germanic word has no IE cognates. <br /><br />Also the <b>-i-</b> before the <b>w</b> glide appears to be secondary. Compare <b>*saiwalō-</b> 'soul' (also without PIE etymology) and Etruscan <b>sval-</b> 'to live' (with syncope of the first syllable).Octavià Alexandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14569731729402710400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-34153696750464573722011-10-15T21:06:42.705+02:002011-10-15T21:06:42.705+02:00I see no reason to abandon the explanation of PG *...I see no reason to abandon the explanation of PG *saiwiz (masculine) as substantivisation with i-suffix of the adjective *saiw-o- > Lat. saevus, if *saiwiz was really the open sea.Almagesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11737365394774242432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-90871827329367165632011-10-06T23:13:22.151+02:002011-10-06T23:13:22.151+02:00I've seen the theory that "sea" is e...<i>I've seen the theory that "sea" is etymologically related to the verb "see" videre, and cognate, but w/ semantic-shift to Lat. 'sequere' to follow, the Gmc *sehwana, HG, sehen, OE pret/sing/1&2p, séah. It mean "to follow with the eyes" and ocean 'sea' is explained "as far as one can see". It fits well with Grimm's Law.</i><br />I'm afraid this doesn't work, Ken. You know, <i>homonymy</i> is the worst enemy of comparative linguists.<br /><br /><i>But there is a chance that the same lexeme that makes "sea" is found in other IE languages but the reflexes are so dramatically sem. shifted as unrecognizable.</i><br />The thing is the Germanic word for 'sea' has no IE cognates. You should know that Germanic has a significant proportion (up to 30%) of non-IE lexicon. <br /><br />A part of this lexicon comes from the languages spoken in northern Europe before Indo-Europeanization, and this includes the word 'sea', which IMHO was used by Mesolithic hunter-gatherers who lived in areas like the Doggerland (now submerged under the North Sea).Octavià Alexandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14569731729402710400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-43254886731671421562011-10-06T22:58:25.956+02:002011-10-06T22:58:25.956+02:00According to Wiktionary, this Finnish word probabl...According to <a href="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/suo" rel="nofollow">Wiktionary</a>, this Finnish word probably comes from Proto-Uralic <b>*toxi</b> 'lake'.Octavià Alexandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14569731729402710400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2918951136804113054.post-40495606116301621952011-10-06T20:07:37.282+02:002011-10-06T20:07:37.282+02:00Just a guess, but would Uralic "suo (marsh)&q...Just a guess, but would Uralic "suo (marsh)" be related???AdygheChabadihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02303595735003236434noreply@blogger.com