Germanic *sajwi- 'sea, lake' is a word with no PIE etymology1, although a relationship with Kartvelian *zoɣw- 'sea' seems likely. IMHO they could be related to NEC *ts’s’æ:k’wV 'sour, raw', reflecting the fact the sea is a mass of salty water.
By contrast, Starostin links these 'sea' words to Altaic *sjògu 'shallow (place)'2. This is probably also the origin of Germanic *sinkw-an- 'to sink', a word with no PIE etymology3 and which suggests a Mesolithic environment like Doggerland, a former landmass in the North Sea which in the last Ice Age bridged Great Britain to the continent.
Although Doggerland gradually sunk by rapid post-glacial raising sea levels, actually becoming an island of much more reduced extension, according to recent research its actual disappearence seems to have been caused by a catastrophic event around 6200 BC, the Storegga Slide, a submarine landslide in the Norwegian Sea which triggered a huge tsunami.
Some authors have suggested the echos of this prehistoric catastrophe are the origin to the legend of Atlantis, but according to Plato's description IMHO this would mean the Pillars of Hercules were located at the Strait of Dover rather than at the Strait of Gibraltar3.
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By contrast, Starostin links these 'sea' words to Altaic *sjògu 'shallow (place)'2. This is probably also the origin of Germanic *sinkw-an- 'to sink', a word with no PIE etymology3 and which suggests a Mesolithic environment like Doggerland, a former landmass in the North Sea which in the last Ice Age bridged Great Britain to the continent.
Although Doggerland gradually sunk by rapid post-glacial raising sea levels, actually becoming an island of much more reduced extension, according to recent research its actual disappearence seems to have been caused by a catastrophic event around 6200 BC, the Storegga Slide, a submarine landslide in the Norwegian Sea which triggered a huge tsunami.
Some authors have suggested the echos of this prehistoric catastrophe are the origin to the legend of Atlantis, but according to Plato's description IMHO this would mean the Pillars of Hercules were located at the Strait of Dover rather than at the Strait of Gibraltar3.
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1 Nikolayev links it to Baltic *sī̂w-a-, *sīw-iā̃ 'juice'.
2 But IMHO Mongolian *siɣar 'dreg, sediment' doesn't belong here.
3 Worse yet, Greenberg links the Altaic word to IE *seik- 'dry' (Latin siccus).
4 In case of doubt, the British Empire holds one of the pillars at both places.
2 But IMHO Mongolian *siɣar 'dreg, sediment' doesn't belong here.
3 Worse yet, Greenberg links the Altaic word to IE *seik- 'dry' (Latin siccus).
4 In case of doubt, the British Empire holds one of the pillars at both places.
Just a guess, but would Uralic "suo (marsh)" be related???
ReplyDeleteAccording to Wiktionary, this Finnish word probably comes from Proto-Uralic *toxi 'lake'.
ReplyDeleteI've seen the theory that "sea" is etymologically related to the verb "see" videre, and cognate, but w/ semantic-shift to Lat. 'sequere' to follow, the Gmc *sehwana, HG, sehen, OE pret/sing/1&2p, séah. It mean "to follow with the eyes" and ocean 'sea' is explained "as far as one can see". It fits well with Grimm's Law.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid this doesn't work, Ken. You know, homonymy is the worst enemy of comparative linguists.
But there is a chance that the same lexeme that makes "sea" is found in other IE languages but the reflexes are so dramatically sem. shifted as unrecognizable.
The thing is the Germanic word for 'sea' has no IE cognates. You should know that Germanic has a significant proportion (up to 30%) of non-IE lexicon.
A part of this lexicon comes from the languages spoken in northern Europe before Indo-Europeanization, and this includes the word 'sea', which IMHO was used by Mesolithic hunter-gatherers who lived in areas like the Doggerland (now submerged under the North Sea).
I see no reason to abandon the explanation of PG *saiwiz (masculine) as substantivisation with i-suffix of the adjective *saiw-o- > Lat. saevus, if *saiwiz was really the open sea.
ReplyDeleteYes, some people has proposed this connection, but IMHO the Germanic word has no IE cognates.
ReplyDeleteAlso the -i- before the w glide appears to be secondary. Compare *saiwalō- 'soul' (also without PIE etymology) and Etruscan sval- 'to live' (with syncope of the first syllable).
Wow, you actually considered that an Aegean language contributed to an IE language...hahaha
ReplyDeleteLike possibly Etruscan "*sil" and Latin "Silva" and Greek "Hulé"...all meaning wood or woods
I don't know what the Proto-Aegean word would be.
Back to the Germanic word for sea...what Almagest has said and what you said is reminiscent of something I read on a blog by Anatoly Lieberman...where he writes about a connection between the words "sea" and "soul"
Here is the link:
http://blog.oup.com/2009/10/watered-down-etymologies/
Also...I still think that Uralic word "Suo" might, somehow, be related...I just read that, that word doesn't have a Uralic etymology or that it is uncertain.
Page 265 the last paragraph above section "9.2. Genetics":
http://books.google.com/books?id=Cp-tB08yd2EC&pg=PA265&lpg=PA265&dq=Suo+%2B+Uralic&source=bl&ots=iQC7e9_0Cv&sig=9pzq53WnrNiMWd6ewFGgJzzD7ys&hl=en&ei=5JChTt-EG9K2tge38uCYBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Suo%20%2B%20Uralic&f=false
Wow, you actually considered that an Aegean language contributed to an IE language...
ReplyDeleteIMHO, the Germanic word was borrowed from some Vasco-Caucasian language, but not necessarily an Aegean one. In fact, Etruscan has also loanwords from non-Aegean VC languages.
Back to the Germanic word for sea...what Almagest has said and what you said is reminiscent of something I read on a blog by Anatoly Lieberman...where he writes about a connection between the words "sea" and "soul"
This is clearly a case of homophony. Why should I read all the crackpot theories one can found in the Internet?
Also I saw an interesting word in Finnic that is remniniscent of the Latin word "Silva". That word is, "Salo" ==> wilds or woodland(s), which has an uncertain or non-Uralic etymology... Could there be any relationship there...I am not sure of what, if any, contact Uralic and Latin had.
As in the case of the Altaic word, this can't be explained within the mainstream framework. IMHO this word muste be a remnant of the languages spoken by hunter-gatherers in Mesolithic Europe.
Also...I still think that Uralic word "Suo" might, somehow, be related...I just read that, that word doesn't have a Uralic etymology or that it is uncertain.
But the Uralic word doesn't even means 'sea' but 'bog, swamp', so it can't be etymologically related to the Germanic.
"Yes, some people has proposed this connection, but IMHO the Germanic word has no IE cognates."
ReplyDeleteAnd why, pray, do you think that – especially in the absence of any loanword clues, and in the face of a perfectly reasonable etymological explanation?
"Also the -i- before the w glide appears to be secondary. Compare *saiwalō- 'soul' (also without PIE etymology) and Etruscan sval- 'to live' (with syncope of the first syllable)."
I do not compare those two, and I have no idea why you choose to enter *saiwalō- into this discussion. Remember that we were speaking about *saiwi-. (That said, do you have any reasons for assuming a syncope of the first syllable in sval-, and for what exactly was syncopated?)
And why, pray, do you think that – especially in the absence of any loanword clues, and in the face of a perfectly reasonable etymological explanation?
ReplyDeleteUnlike mine, the scope of mainstream IE-ists is limited to IE languages and their reconstructed PIE. So what it appears to be "a perfectly reasonable etymological explanation" to you, might look as inadequate to me.
You might already know Germanic has a large proportion of non-IE substrate loanwords, and the word 'sea' looks to be one of them.
I do not compare those two, and I have no idea why you choose to enter *saiwalō- into this discussion. Remember that we were speaking about *saiwi-.
I've choosen *saiwalō- only to illustrate the phonetic developments of *saiwi-, as they're similar sounding, not because I think they're actually related (although some crackpots think the contrary).
(That said, do you have any reasons for assuming a syncope of the first syllable in sval-, and for what exactly was syncopated?)
Vocalic syncope is very frequent in Etruscan. For example, Latin Sāturnus corresponds to Etruscan Satre. And normally, syncope arises on unstressed syllables.